Richard,

I read your review and I would like to inform you about the current DOE test procedures and how York may have attained their 98% rating. First off the DOE rating procedure does cover 2-stage and Modulating furnaces. A modulating furnace is tested at the minimum input and at the maximum input. The AFUE rating is then based on a percentage of the minimum rate AFUE plus a smaller percentage of the maximum rate AFUE (approx 80% min AFUE + 20% max AFUE). When performing the AFUE test on a modulating unit the maximum input will be set at rate and at midpoint of rise and then the steady-state efficiency will be tested along with jacket loss. In the DOE program the jacket loss is multiplied by 1.7. Typically a jacket loss will be around .4-.5%. Then you are supposed to switch to low heat and take what you get. This is where some manufacturers are stretching the truth. When the DOE procedure was updated this was meant to say leave the duct restiction constant and then operate at minimum input. The test is still required to be run within 2% of the minimum input and at midpoint rise. Some manufacturers will run the minimum input below the midpoint rise and will intentionally design the furnace to run below midpoint rise at the minimum input. This can help elevate the AFUE. They can also run the furnace in a very controlled environment using combustion air with a relative humidity as high as 80% and a room temperature near 65 deg F. Now for the kicker when these units are tested for compliance they are tested at full rate and the default jacket loss of 1% is used. Then they are tested at minimum input. The tested AFUE and rated output have to be within 5% of the manufacturers rating. This is allowed because the testing agency is not testing the jacket loss and not testing in a controlled environment (the test agency may test at 40-50% RH and 70-75 deg F. ambient). The testing agency also does not usually run minimum input at midpoint rise. If testing below midpoint it will help AFUE and if testing above midpoint it will hurt AFUE. If the rating is outside of the 5% range then the test agency goes back and tests jacket loss. Now lets go to the next step in the rating process. The manufacturer will test multiple units and then do a statistical rating. They could test anywhere from 2 to 6 units. If they test 2 units and the AFUE's are very close then they will calculate a AFUE just below the average. If there is allot of difference then the calculation will calculate an AFUE well below the lowest AFUE of both models tested and it penalize's the AFUE rating significantly. The manufacturer will then opt to test more units to bring the rating up.

Good morning, Richard. My name is Bryan Rocky, and I am the Product Manager for Heating Products, Building Efficiency group of Johnson Controls. We make the York, Coleman, and Luxaire brands of residential and commercial HVAC equipment.

When I first saw this review, I did not respond as I thought there was just a misunderstanding of how this furnace works, and how the test procedure for condensing furnaces is done for all manufacturers. After seeing this response from the "Anonomous Competitor", I feel a response is necessary.

The comments above by Richard state "did York invent something new that no one else knows about ....." is actually the truth. Although other competitiors know about it (and are using something similar in several cases (i.e. Lennox, Trane, Nordyne, and Rheem), the modulating control that we use for this furnace includes a number of patents that give this furnace the ability to operate differently than any other furnace on the market. I will explain more in the comments below. That is how this highest AFUE rating ever came about.

1. This York furnace and all York furnaces are tested to the requirements of the Dept. of Energy test procedures for gas fired central furnaces. We are part of the AHRI (formerly GAMA) voluntary certification program for third party independent verification of the efficiency ratings we show for all of our products. These 98% furnaces have been tested by the AHRI third party program and do meet the efficiencies shown.

2. The York YP9C furnace that is rated between 95.5% AFUE up to 98% AFUE for the largest unit is a fully modulating, condensing gas furnace equipped with an ECM blower. This design is our second generation of modulating furnaces which was introduced in the summer of 2008. The first generation of York modulating furnaces which were rated at 95% AFUE were introduced in 2004, and was a very successful design, which has since been improved upon with these new YP9C models.

The current YP9C furnaces operate or modulate through 100 stages of operation, and the amount of combustion airflow is maintained by the furnace control to optimize combustion at every one of those 100 stages. The circulating blower adjusts the airflow over the heat exchangers at every stage to provide nearly constant air temperature rise. With the combustion and heat transfer efficiencies that result, along with the method of condensing the water vapor out of the flue gases and the size of the secondary heat exchangers used, we can get to this high level of AFUE's that are not possible otherwise.

3. The comment on the test procedure is almost correct, but does not include any of the information on how the condensation of water vapor out of the flue gases provides an increase in efficiency for every condensing furnace. This process is the same for every manufacturer who buils a furnace rated above 88% AFUE. This York furnace just does this better than anyone else with the control features mentioned above and with the size of the secondary heat exchangers used. What the commenter misses is the fact that these furnaces run with flue gases so low because they modulate from 100% of the input rate down to 35% of the normal, full rate. When you have flue gas temperature below 100 degrees F, the jacket heat loss gets much lower than the number quoted. And the amount of condensate collected is greater than ever seen before, which is the last major part of the efficiency calulations.

4. The comments made about this furnace question the validity of the 97% to 98% AFUE ratings, but it is interesting to note that there is no such comment about the Maytag modulating gas furnace that is 97% AFUE. Or the Carrier furnaces that are up to 96.6% AFUE, or the Trane furnaces rated up to 96.7% AFUE. or the Lennox variable capacity (also known as a modulating furnace) rated at 95%, or the Rheem modulating furnaces rated at 95% AFUE which are also modulating designs. All of these furnaces use the same test methods, have similar features and designs, and in the case of the Maytag Lennox, and Rheem furances are modulating furnaces equipped with variable speed blower almost exactly like the York furnace, although using a different control that does not allow exactly the same operation.

It is also interesting to note the this second generation York furnace was available for sale and rated between 97% up to 98% a year in advance of the Maytag design (which is not the highest rated gas furnace ever presented to the industry), since they followed the York prducts into the marketplace.

5. Finally, the question on the correct test procedure above talks aboout did we use the single stage procedure for this furnaces has already been answered, but let me add one other comment. The basic design of the burner, inducer, heat exchanger, and cabinet is the same as used in the York single stage, PSC motor equipped condensing gas furnaces. The efficiency results for all 11 models of the TG9S series furnaces which have also been verified through the AHRI/GAMA test program shows an efficiency rating of 95.5% AFUE - which is the highest AFUE rating in our industry for a single stage, PSC equipped gas furnace.

And just to add in as well, the two stage models of this product (TM9T abd TM9V furnaces) achieve 96% AFUE for all models. This shows the our engineers did do something new and better than the other guys - resulting in a furnace design that just can't be beat in efficency, regardless of input or type of control system.

In summary, I think that this response provides answers to the questions shown above and shows you how this furnace differs from the competition. Having said that, it would seem appropriate to me to remove the "Caution Alert" note above, and provide appropriate, unbiased information similar to the other competitive furnaces discussed on this website. If further information is desired on how this furnace works, go to www.york.com for more details.

Thousands of homeowners have experienced the benefits of these York YP9C furnaces over the past 15 months, with increased comfort, reliabile performance and with significant energy savings.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond and provide this feedback, and I would be happy to discuss this in more detail if desired.

Wow Bryan, like reading one of your company brochures.

We purchased a York furnace a few months ago and it has never worked properly since the day it was installed! Service has been out 4 times and can’t seem to figure out the problem. They’ve blamed everything from the number of vents to the new thermostat and still now change. It short-cycles constantly and has quit altogether on 2 occasions leaving us with no heat for over 24 hours. And this in the middle of winter!

After repeated attempts at contacting the manufacturer we have gotten NO RESPONSE from their customer service. Seems they’re only interested in selling the product and making outrageous claims than actually taking care of their customers. Oh well, at least they can write great sales brochure verbiage.

After 7 months of “testing”, can’t really call it using since it still doesn’t work properly, I can honestly say NEVER AGAIN!

I would like to say I have installed this furnace in many homes and never had an issue with yorks product. it is a very good product and my customers are very happy with it. It is not always the furnace mfg to blame but the installation of the product. we have customer that bought the 80% AFUE modulating and has saved over $100.00 per month in their heating bill. I feel bad that you folks are having problems with your furnace. i would also say don't be so quick to judge the furnace mfg.

Since natural gas is pressurized like an air compressor, the water is squeezed out and condenses in the ground somewhere. It is possible for a house high on a hill to have no water in its gas line, and exhaust. Which is also why, houses on low ground have the water in their gas lines freeze and later rupture in extremely cold weather. My original York system lasted almost 23 years. Our neighborhood got hit at least once a year with close lightning strikes and we would have to replace a capacitor on the AC maybe once a year. Finally, at age 23, one last hit with lightning and it was over. Our new York unit works great, and is more efficient-- our trees are taller too--which helps-- shade as well as lightning.

I have scanned this review and watched it over time, there was supposed to be an update after Yorks responce to the efficiency of 98%. I do believe them and am happy with the entire current York line. It seems very unjustified to have a referance to caution alert and all the verbage about Lies etc when the other competing products with close ratings have no such negative claims. It's time to get over the fact that York has a superior product in many ways and move on. This seems like slander in my eyes. What equipment associations do you realy have. What background allows someone to write a review, post it and then leave negative unjustified information out there. This comfort alert is also extended to all the York line of products, why, this is completely unfounded, misleading and down right dirty.

There was a referance to the one manufacture at 96.6%, 96.7, even 97% efficient, why are you not considering that to be false since you state there is 3% water and other contaniments, these should also be under a caution alert if all was fare, I only want a fare comparison. The AHRI site does list the York Furnaces at 97.5, 97.7and 98% depending on the actual model and size. I have attached a link to the search page. http://www.ahridirectory.org/a...earch.aspx A Search for the Furnace model of YP9C will yield the results for all the sizes in the series. The tests for these are the same standard for like models of other manufacturers, so they are comparing apples to apples when it comes to the results correct? You still state on the Heat pump review your recomondation with regards to the comfort alert and I assume the rating is reflective of that, why? You also refer to the comfort alert still on the furnace review to be reviewed soon, it's been about 6 months since Yorks responce, whats the delay?

You Seem to think I have called you a lier I however did no such thing. I am refering to your comments about York and car dealers and lying no consumer should accept being lied to. I am not here to call you down, we all have rights to our opinions however,this is out of control. Are the tests standard? if yes is the case where is the question. you are correct 100 - 3 = 97. You say also there is a jacket loss of about .4-.5 so I think 100-3-.5=96.5, how can any one achieve their ratings. We sell a lot of air source heat pumps, they work exceptionally well in our local climett.

First of all let me say that I am NOT saying York is an inferior product and I NEVER said that. Secondly your premise is flawed. If what you say is true and then it is possible for my furnace to get over 100% efficiency provided the gas company does their multiplier correctly. Brent it is not a comfort alert it is a Caution Alert and before you call someone a village idiot learn how to spell and calculate numbers better. IP address stamp tells me a lot.

Next, if you have installed hundreds or thousands of these things then all these consumers who are getting excellent heat from these products sure have not found this website to tell everyone how they feel about these products except from the single review above?

Because of the insults and name calling that is happening we are closing the comments for this section. If you wish to have a comment published for York Gas Furnaces you may do so by emailing the comments to the webmaster. It is non-productive to continue this in the manner that it has continued. Obviously, people with vested interested in York cannot answer the questions posed here but only try to insult the reviewer. I stand by my review and have added a "Don't Buy" to all York products simply because of the manner in which this debate has been handled by York and people who sell York. I have heard that when people resort to calling you names and trying to insult you that you have already won the argument. I never thought this was a game that I needed to win but only a public forum where I am informing people. I also learn things here myself and am not so closed minded that I will not admit when I am wrong however the vulgar and underhanded manner in which people have replied to me either through email or through the comment forum is disgusting and while I did not say York was bad or lacked in quality I will NEVER recommend York to anyone because of what has happened here.